Mr. Mark Jacob was a one time National Legal Adviser of the ruling Peoples Democratic Party(PDP) before he was appointed Attorney General and Commissioner for Justice in Kaduna state during the administration of former governor Ahmed Mohammed Makarfi. In this interview with correspondent RANA BAYOK in Kaduna , Mark accused the administration of Governor Mohammed Namadi Sambo of unequal distribution of resources in the state, alleging that the Southern part of Kaduna state was being marginalized. Excerpts.

Few months into the next election year, the electoral reform which the president promised is yet to be carried out. Do you think that we are going to have these reforms before the next election?

 I quite believe that the electoral system requires some inputs. I also believe that the president meant well when he said that electoral reform will be one of his cardinal objectives and I hold it strongly that this is possible before 2011. We can have a new electoral law before the next election. As long as people are serious and dedicated to their duty, the process of law making can take a very short time. There are areas that do not require constitutional amendment, while there are areas that require constitutional amendment. The most cumbersome aspect of this is actually knowing what Nigerians expect and having in detail what the electoral reform will look like. So, I think that the president has scored a pass mark in setting up that committee headed by the former Chief Justice of Nigeria, Justice Lawal Uwais to look at the details, collate all the information and make it into one report. It reduces the scope of work and I sure that the content of that report can easily be compressed into what will make for a good electoral law for the country especially those areas that does not require constitutional amendment.

 INEC Chairman recently raised an alarm that the 2011 elections are threatened by the lack of an enabling law. What do you think about that?

 I don’t really understand what he meant by that.

 That the law that will guide the election ought to have been ready by now.

 If you want an election to be truly transparent, the issues that should be considered are not complicated. First, make sure that there a voter’s register that is authentic, make sure that people’s votes count, make sure that the man who is going to declare the result declare exactly what has been cast by the electorate. All these don’t require any long term planning. Agreed that the logistics need to be put in place. But it is not really about law making or about the existence of detailed laws; but the will and desire by the operators of the system to make it work. I believe that in Nigeria , we have a collection of people who are interested in genuine and fair election and we can do this thing once we decide that we are going to do it. The law as it can be amended to make for those things that are fundamental. Make sure that we have a credible voter’s register and that when you go to Ward A, you don’t find the register of ward B. These are issues that can be corrected without necessarily looking for a new law. The existing law as it is makes provision for such things to be taken care of. I believe that once there is a will, Nigerians will make things work and I believe that we can make it work.

2011 is around the corner and there is trouble here and there among members of the PDP in various states. If things continue like this, do you really think that the party has any chance in the next elections.

A: Let me say clearly that we are used to crisis and that politics without these kinds of crises is not sweet. But how you manage crises is what matters. Any state that does not manage its crisis properly will suffer for it. One reason why I say so is because Nigerians are becoming more enlightened by the day and becoming more interested in their rights and not just the privileges. We no longer have the situation where you can compel people to vote for you whether they like it or not or you can vote for them by proxy. There are people in Nigeria today who will insist that their votes must count. I want to think that the number is growing by the day by virtue of political education and the growth in the system which I think is coming as a result of the sustenance of democratic structures. We need to sustain democracy so that with time, something will continue to happen. I believe that with time, these things will be shifted and will get to the real sense of democracy. The system will be cleaned up and we will get to the true sense of democracy that we are aiming at. But I say very strongly that we have been inundated with crisis here and there within the PDP. It is not new. It is either somebody wants to become chairman or secretary; somebody wants to contest election or wants to bring down someone and take the position. These things are normal, but like I said, it is how you manage these crises that matters. Kano state for instance has been unable to recover from the crisis encountered after 1999 and that former stronghold of the PDP was suddenly taken over by the ANPP without any struggle. It all bore down to how the operators of the system at any micro manage any matter.

 You are saying that if the party failed to manage these crises before 2011, it might lose the elections?

That is the natural consequence. You go to Anambra; it is the same situation, go to Imo, the same. I was at the party executive at the national level and I know that the PDP lost some of these elections not because the party was not on ground or not popular; but largely because the operators of the system did not manage the crisis of who should be the candidate and who should not be. It is the same situation we are now having in Anambra again. Those who have bought and returned the form in Anambra as at yesterday (Tuesday, September 15, 2009) are 35 for one governorship seat for one party. So, you can see that the failure to manage such things gives birth to this plurality of candidates. I know that one of the things we encountered even when the PDP challenged the elections in Anambra was that there were people who were challenging the nomination of the PDP candidate. That was after the elections. The operators of the system need to manage the system towards peace and amicable resolution of the crisis. Crisis is natural occurrence in any human endevour, particularly in politics where the interest are largely personal and people are just interested in occupying offices. You are bound to have crisis, but how you manage them; whether you are matured in the handling, whether you are dispassionate, lay down your personal interest and allow the larger interest of the community to over ride yours matters a lot.

Aside the crisis in the PDP, the Nigerian nation is at a standstill at the moment, nothing is moving. Don’t you think this is an indication that the PDP is losing grip and that this might work against them in 2011?

I don’t absolutely believe that nothing is working. There are a few things that are working, but we must admit that there are apparent failures here and there. But again, when you talk of 2011, who else will take it from the PDP. Who is the opposition when everybody is decamping to the PDP? Even those who are not in PDP in their states are doing the same thing that the PDP states are doing? There is nothing unique; there is nothing you can point at like what you have during the Shagari era when you could say this is a PRP era pursuing this agenda. You go to Edo , with due respect to the Comrade Governor, the reports coming in are not in any way different from any other PDP state. You go to Borno where you have ANPP, I am not sure that you will have any remarkable difference from what you have in any other state. So, who is going to take over from the PDP in 2011? They do not exist. The opposition has shown that they have virtually surrendered and most of them have closed their offices. In APGA, the crisis going on right now between the two factional leaders with everybody announcing them as national chairman with only one governor, what will happen if they have up to five governors? So, these are the issues that must be tackled by Nigerians holistically. Truly, there is no viable opposition that can give the PDP any serious fight at least by 2011.

We are aware of the infighting within the PDP in Kaduna state and you are talking about the problem at the national level. Are you saying that by 2011, the PDP can still win the elections?

 At the national level, people are decamping from other parties to the PDP; it is not as if we even have any serious or vibrant opposition. Whatever crisis we have as a party is internal. I have refused to just keep quiet and say this is a family affair and when things are wrong, we just keep quiet and sweep them under the carpet in the name of espirit de corp. We need to checkmate ourselves. Otherwise, this solid foundation we seem to be boasting about can be swept away. It is not possible that you have a party and install a government and the government does not perform and you expect that without any difficulty, you will still win. The natural consequences of failure are that if the people are responsible and are interested in protecting their votes, they will not support any government that fails or they will not vote him back to office. The court of the common man is his vote where he dispenses justice himself by saying I gave you a mandate and you have not performed and so, I am withdrawing the mandate. That is the right of the common man. We are saying that as a party, we have internal problems and we are not happy that we have such internal problems because they are not necessary and are not supposed to be there. The issues under discussion are issues that ought not to even arise because everybody involved in politics should know those elementary issues and address them.

What really are those things you believe are working and those things that are not working in the Nigerian system?

 I wouldn’t want to be a spokesman for the government today because generally, you need to agree with me that a few things are working. Let me take you to how Nigeria has been run in the past where accountability has never been an issue. I can say today with joy in my heart that this government and the one before it put in place structures that call the high and mighty to account for service, to account for the resources of the state, resources of the people handed over to them in good faith. People are being held accountable and you agree with me that this has not been part of Nigeria for a long time. That we have it today is a plus. People you can describe in the past as untouchable are today touchable and are now answerable to some structures that have been put in place by this government. There is also the area of communication. Today, we can communicate and a sometimes ago, that was not possible. Nigeria today has one of the fastest growing telecom markets. Whether we are positively managing it or not is another issue. These are issues that are very germane tom the survival of the society. Electricity and electoral reforms are certainly bad. We have not scored high marks there. But I want to believe that there are many things that are working beside the ones that I have mentioned.

People see your recent remarks in the media as an extension of the seeming political feud between former governor Ahmed Mohammed Makarfi and Governor Namadi Sambo. As a close associate of the former governor, we want to know from you whether there is any problem between them.

 I will say very clearly that I was not aware of the feud until I read the statements of Umar Gana, Husseini Jallo and the PDP chairman in the state in the media. Until then, I was not aware that there was a feud between the two. It was Umar Gana who was not part of the machineries that brought the present governor into office because he was not part of the campaign at all. He came back after the elections and he is now speaking for this government that he was not part of. He has repeatedly said that between Namadi Sambo and Makarfi, it is a fight to finish and that they will never settle. I read it with fear because I didn’t know when they started fighting. Then the PDP state chairman also made a statement that Makarfi has been causing trouble in the state and that they are going to deal with him and that he should come out and face them in the 2011 election so that they can stripe him naked and show the world that he is actually powerless and nothing in the state. I read that one also with very serious caution. Husseini Jallo was the one who said the most unprintable things which I don’t want to repeat. He went as far as saying that they will deal with Makarfi. It is from these snippets of Journalistic work that some of us got to know that there is something in between. I spoke about equitable sharing of state resources and state power and for God sake, I don’t need any Makarfi to educate me on that or instigate me to say that. I am a player of this game and I know that the reward of politics is not in heaven, but here. When you sow in politics, you reap it here. If you don’t reap it here, you have lost. I followed the present governor round the state and he said in my local government that any area or section of the state that gives him the lion share of votes will get the lion share of appointments and projects. He used the commercial language like your vote is like your shares in this company. When the dividends will come, it will go to those who put in more shares. If you go to the ministry of water resources for example, one project alone in Zaria is costing N15 billion and when you go my own side of the state, the entire boreholes, both ongoing and completed in the area is not up to N1 billion. So, why should anybody feel that he is being fair to me? When election come, he will not go there, I will be the one to go and the people will confront me. These are the issues and Makarfi does not need to tell me to raise my voice on this. He does not even know what it is because he does not live there and has no family there. The common man, whether in Soba or in Zonkwa should be able to enjoy minimally. I am not saying that the project in Zaria should not be done. Infact, I am very happy that the project is being done and that the water problem in Zaria will be solved. If they are going to resolve the water crisis in Zaria , it is a good thing because we have many federal institutions in Zaria and if there is a water scheme that will take care of that problem, I will be happy. But what I am saying is that there is enough money to do that and build a similar thing in Manchok, Kafanchan or Zonkwa. I also made it clear that we have an existing water system that was built a long time ago with sponsorship from the World Bank. It flow from Manchok and serve Kaura and Zangon Kataf local government and can also serve Ja’maa local government. That thing is not being utilized till today because of lack of power to generate and pump the power. The pipes have been laid and the machines are working perfectly well. During Makarfi’s tenure, an arrangement was made for diesel to be supplied to the plant so that water can be pumped to these local government. Everything is in place there except for power supply and nobody has bothered about it. Instead of taking care of that, they are going to sink boreholes that will break down after one year and you say we should not talk. When we talk, you say we are Makarfi boys. What has Makarfi got to do with water supply to my village? Do I need to be a friend to Makarfi to know what is good for me? People should address the real issues and leave the mundane things aside and use them in the gossip corners.

 Talking about equitable distribution of resources, would you say that during the Makarfi era, resources were equitably distributed compared to the present administration in Kaduna state?

 If you have been in Kaduna , you will know that there was a time some people called him Joseph. They were abusing him because, for the first time, somebody was paying attention to the Southern Kaduna interest. I cannot speak for him, but when the truth comes, we speak it. I was a part of a group called Club 12 and we were good at analyzing projects when the budget of the state is announced. We look at where all these projects are going and we condemned him where necessary and gave him pass mark where necessary. Of course, it is not a 50-50 ratio; but I can say that for the first time in over 18 years, somebody bothered to open up the interior, send electricity to the interior of Southern Kaduna ; give us Chiefdoms that people have been craving for before we were born. Somebody bothered to say talk to me and I will talk to you. We were condemning Makarfi, but he never shut us up. We use to condemn even the quality of road projects in our area. When we talk today, it is not saying that Makarfi was 100 perfect or that he never faulted. He had his areas of failure and we never failed to point them out. He had his areas of passes and we gave it to him. Makarfi won our heart in many areas and we expected that this governor who was brought in singlehandedly by Makarfi will follow his footsteps and improve on those things he stated. Our side of the state is the most patient and most docile. If you give us a small chunk of these things, we will allow you to take the rest and that is what Makarfi did. He knew that we are not vicious people and not ungrateful people; that we are gentlemen and those who did not even go to school are responsible people. When you show them good spirit and a good heart and want to relate with them as human being, treat them as partners in this game and then engage them in the things you are doing. I am saying it clearly that we don’t have the same scenario today and people are not addressing the difference. That is why they run to say Makarfi boys or Namadi boys. By the way, who are the Namadi boys? Is it Senator Musa Bello? He was a governorship candidate of Action Congress and lost the primaries when Namadi was contesting the primaries in PDP. So, when did he become the champion? You became governor and threw away all the people that worked for you and take the people that have been against the PDP. Things cannot work when you are doing that.

Governor Sambo has an 11 points agenda. What are those areas that you think he has done well? Secondly, in 2011, is Southern Kaduna preparing anybody to take over from Sambo?

11 points is too much. I wish he had only one or two which he will concentrate on. Today, you are neither here nor there. I challenged him to take up one of these agenda and tell us how far he has worked. Forget about the tantrum in the newspaper by the Commissioner for Information about keeping promises and all that. They are spending our money on propaganda. I wish some of this money being spent on keeping promises will be spent on the construction of a small dam somewhere so that the people in Ikara will get water, somebody in the interior of Abet can drink water from a pipe. We are just deceiving ourselves with 11 points agenda. I hope that at the end of the day, somebody will do an end of tenure report that will score the government on these 11 points. It should not be the governor scoring himself. Let outsiders access what is happening and report. If they find out that this man has worked, I will surrender. But I maintain that there is nothing to show from all the propaganda going on. As for whether we are grooming somebody, time will tell. For us, we live by the day because that is our up bring. We live and pray to God for today, tomorrow will serve it. But I assure you that from what is on ground today, unless it changes, there is going to be some shaking.

The Attorney General and Minister of Justice and the EFCC has been engaged in a war of words of  late with the minister insisting that the EFCC cleared some people which the commission said they did not clear. What is your opinion about this development?

 Personally, I don’t think that the Attorney General has any business addressing the press on matters like this. He is hitting up the politics unnecessarily. There is a minister of Information and the EFCC has a spokesman. Ordinarily, even in the Ministry of Justice, he is supposed to have a Press Secretary. There are things you don’t come out yourself to do for the sake of maintaining your status and really being an Attorney General. I do not see any reason why a senior member of the bar should be over stretching himself explaining something as if he was in court. It is not his business. In fact, the governors under discussion should be the ones explaining that they were cleared and not him. Is he their lawyer? It is not a very healthy development. But I do know that as the supervising minister over EFCC, he was trying to help them explain some things to the public. But if EFCC, as it has become now has come out to say we didn’t clear anybody, it becomes an embarrassment. You are the supervising minister and a parastatal under you is challenging your integrity publicly. He should leave these things to those who are trained to handle the media.

ENDS